Episode Transcript
[00:00:03] Speaker A: Welcome to the Ortho Joe Podcast, a joint production of the Journal of Bone and Joint Surgery and Ortho Evidence.
Join hosts Mohit Bhandari and Mark Swankowski as they discuss current topics and publications.
[00:00:15] Speaker B: In the world of orthopedics and beyond.
[00:00:19] Speaker C: Well, good evening, Mark. It's a slightly different time for our Ortho Joe Podcast, but nonetheless, wishing you a good evening.
[00:00:27] Speaker A: Well, good evening to you. And we don't need any coffee because we have such an interesting guest.
[00:00:33] Speaker C: We certainly do. And you know what, why don't we just go right into it because I think we're going to have lots and lots, lots to talk about. So this is Rock Patel, and if you haven't heard of him, I would strongly urge those of you on Instagram to look him up by that name. And you will see that there, this is a definitely, I would say not and not. I'm facetious here. An international man of mystery, an adventurer. He does many, many things. But some of you may know him at University of Michigan as a clinical professor of orthopedic surgery with also a cross appointment to the Department of Neurosurgery. Roc, welcome to Ortho Joe.
[00:01:09] Speaker B: Thanks for having me, Mo and Martin. Thank you.
[00:01:11] Speaker C: So let me just, let me just, if I could start off by just rhyming off a few things that I've picked up and I'm sure there's many more here, but you are certainly an adventurer and I think we last connected sometime this summer of 2025 in which you had sort of, but just quite kind of like matter of fact. Oh, yeah, you know, I'd like to chat, Bo, but I'm going to be in Iceland doing a sound like a 200 kilometer, pretty significant ultramarathon and. Well, we'll get into that, but you know, a pretty big thing. And then I believe I've seen you or I've seen posts of you ice climbing in Wyoming in 2024. You summited mountains or snow caps in Antarctica. Not that prior to that. And then in 2019 where you and I, I think I first really heard about you back then when you had summited.
And I know that's just a really small amount of the things you've done.
Maybe I'll start off with the following. You have said somewhere in one of your posts that, you know, why, you know, people wonder why does someone do what you do, considering you're busy enough in your, you know, in your clinical life, your work life. And you wrote somewhere growth comes from being uncomfortable. Can you speak to that.
[00:02:25] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I think all of this started when I first finished my fellowship in 2006.
Until then, I was the typical ortho guy. Grew up in Queens, and, you know, I was in New York and, you know, pretty much led a conventional life. Wasn't really into the outdoors.
And then I finished my fellowship in Wisconsin, and I went back to private practice in New York. And it was great for a couple years, but then all of a sudden I hit this lull and I felt like I was stuck in a rut. And when you reflect back on it, and maybe you all have experienced this for your whole life, you're striving for something, right? To finish your education, to become an attending, and you finally get there. And, you know, I had initially joined a private practice group in Long island, and they were amazing. But I put my name on the building and I had really nothing to strive for at that point in time. And I realized that, you know, I was just stuck in a rut because I had no growth opportunities at that moment. I was an attending orthopedic spine surgeon. And, you know, you grow like this in the beginning, and then you incrementally improve your surgical skill, improves how long it takes to do surgery, your business acumen. But there just wasn't the rapid growth that I had experienced for the first 31 years. And I was very comfortable in my existence. Right? Like, I had a job, I had a nice paycheck. Finally, you know, that's when I realized that I needed to do something different to get out of my Ruth.
And, you know, it takes on different things for different people. But for me, I got lucky. And one of my classmates from residency called me and asked me if I wanted to go climb Longs Peak, which is a 14,000 foot peak in Colorado in the winter. And I grew up in the inner city of New York, and I'd never done anything like that, but there are so many things that are appealing about that. I normally would have said no, but being in the place I was in, I wanted to be part of a team again. I really missed my classmates in residency. I wanted to have a goal. I wanted to train for something.
And, you know, when I look back at it, I really wanted to be uncomfortable and to grow again. So that's kind of what started this whole journey. And, you know, for me, it was really important to trigger growth myself. Right? Like, I needed to do something to get out of this funk that I was in.
So climbing just presented itself through a friend, and I went on this trip in Colorado.
And I found that, you know, I tried this climb and, you know, physically it pushed me, but it also helped me re engage socially with a group of friends and mentally and emotionally, just like learning about climbing and just diving into something new. And it really just jump started like this growth in me that led to a whole bunch of decisions which kind of put me where I am in my life. I realized that prior practice in Long island wasn't the right thing for me.
So I left my.
My home, New York City, where my entire extended family is, and I came to Michigan, where I'd never lived to pursue this academic job. And there was just a series of events that just started from this one trip in Colorado. Yeah. So I got pretty lucky. I got that phone call from my friend Brock.
[00:05:31] Speaker A: I got to ask you, do you feel that growth outside of your identity as an orthopedic spine surgeon, does that limit your growth within your real job?
[00:05:47] Speaker B: I would say it's exactly the opposite, Mark.
I've learned a lot climbing and in other aspects of life, but just climbing about how to deal with adversity, about humility, about asking for help. And all of these lessons that I've learned have really helped me out a lot as a surgeon and have made me a better surgeon. And I also think that I'm successful at climbing, but because throughout my life, the lessons I've learned in surgery have made me deal with adversity a lot better. And I think that's made me successful in the mountains.
[00:06:19] Speaker C: Rock, you went from what, I mean, a 14,000. I've never been that high. You know, I've been as high as about 13,000. And I'll tell you, that feels high. It feels really high when I'm up that way.
What was the impetus to move to Everest and, you know, and say, I'm going to do Everest? Because you kind of went, you know, I imagine there was some degree of moving higher and higher into peaks just to get acclimatized. And you kind of get, I guess I get, quote, bitten by the bug. But can you speak a little bit to that year and particularly 2019? If I recall, the Everest climb in 2019 had a lot of media around the backlog and people dying just waiting to get to the summit. Can you speak a little bit to that whole experience?
[00:07:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I'll take the first part first. When I went climbing on this 14 er, I mean, in retrospect, it wasn't a super challenging climb, but I was not fit from a cardio perspective. I was A lifter. I was about £200. I could bench a ton, but I couldn't run a couple of miles. And when I went on this trip, I loved being around my friends and I loved this adventure we were on. But I was horrible. I was the worst one in the entire group. And I remember on the way down, I was just reflecting on it and I really enjoyed the mountains. I really enjoyed climbing. It was the first time I camped out on the snow and I wanted to keep pursuing it even though I was really bad at it. So at that point in time, I had two decisions to make. Do I just abandon it and say, hey, I'm a lifter and that's what I'll continue doing, or do I say, you know, I really enjoyed this and I could learn some lessons and become better at it. And, you know, I decided that I really enjoyed it and I wanted to become better at it. So I went back to New York and I signed up with a guide service to climb Mount Rainier. And that was the next thing that I did. And I learned a lot from, from this failed climb. We didn't even make the summit. And I changed my training.
I lost a bunch of weight. Ultimately I became vegan and started doing a lot more aerobic stuff. And I made it to the top of Rainier. And then I picked some other local climbs and got better, I got more fit and I started going from one or two day climbs to kind of bigger expedition style climbs. And I wanted to do that because it's a totally different discipline going on an expedition as opposed to going on a weekend climb.
And most of these climbs are international.
So I started climbing higher and higher peaks, kind of all over.
And there's this thing called the Seven Summits. It's the tallest peak on every continent. And that was never my intention.
Some people do the seven Summits for the sake of doing the seven Summits. I just met a lot of cool people along the way.
And one of my friends that I met, he lives in Tasmania and he asked me if I wanted to climb Everest. And you know, we had climbed in Alaska and South America and done some expeditions and I really wanted to and something that as a kid, like, you know, you always see the National Geographic magazines when, when we were younger.
But I had to defer for a few years. My friend John went without me. And it's funny, I tell a story, you know, I kept telling John I had an injury of some sort. My ankle hurt, my knee hurt. But in actuality, I was probably just scared to go. I mean, it was a. It was a big thing.
And then one day, my niece who's now at Michigan, she's a junior now, but she was a kid back then, and she said, hey, Uncle Rock, are you ever going to climb Everest? All my friends were asking me, so I was like, okay, I'm going to do it.
So I signed up and, you know, I.
[00:09:52] Speaker C: That's.
[00:09:53] Speaker B: That was one of the first posts I ever made on Instagram. And I'm not a big Instagram poster, but I figured if I put it on Instagram, I would have the social pressure of accomplishing it.
And surprisingly, I got a lot of support from unexpected places, including Yumo, to kind of pursue this.
[00:10:14] Speaker B: So, yeah, that's kind of how I got to Everest ultimately.
Yeah, it was never. It was never too.
[00:10:21] Speaker B: Make the seven summits or to achieve some goal. It's just I loved climbing. I loved expeditions, being in remote places with my friends and pushing myself physically and mentally.
The Everest climb in 2019 was interesting. There was a lot of media attention around it, and it seems like there's always a lot of media attention around Everest. In reality, the crowds that people were speaking of have always been there. They've been there for like the last decade. It's just now we have social media and one picture just goes viral and everyone sees it.
People are talking about how dirty Everest was, and it really was not dirty at all. And if you time things appropriately, you can have a lot of the mountain to yourself.
So on the summit day, we decided as a group to leave later in the day. And we saw everyone go to the top and leaving later. As they were coming down, we were going up and it was essentially our team and we had the summit to ourselves, which is a really, you know, special experience for us.
Yeah, I mean, it was interesting. The media just kind of blows everything out of proportion.
[00:11:29] Speaker A: But no doubt, Rock, you had family and loved ones pressure, you know, isn't that a stupid way to risk your life?
[00:11:40] Speaker A: Wouldn't that be such a shame to end a career with something that's totally. You're diving into willingly?
What was your strategy to deal with that kind of pressure?
[00:11:51] Speaker B: Yeah, it's interesting. My parents are completely opposite people. Right. My mom was so upset that I was going. She couldn't understand why. And my dad understood, you know, you have one life to live. And now my dad's 84 and he was like Superman back in the day, and he could barely walk around the house anymore, you know, And I think he recognizes that all our Time is fleeting, and if you have a dream, you should try to push and accomplish it.
My daughter at that time was nine years old, and I wanted to really set an example for her. Like, if you want to do something and you prepare for it, you could be successful at it.
And, yeah, I never want her to shy away from anything because she's intimidated by it. If you plan appropriately, then you do it. And there are many climbs where I've gone on where it just didn't feel right and the conditions weren't right. I wasn't fit enough. I wasn't in the best headspace, and I turned around, you know. So for me, I am confident I'll make the right decisions, I'll prepare as best as I could, and then plan for success. It's kind of the same thing with surgery, you know? You know, I think surgery is more stressful than climbing because we're responsible for other people. It's not just our lives. It's someone else's life then, you know, I do deformity surgery primarily now, and it's stressful. I talk to my daughter about it all the time. She's in high school right now. And, you know, I plan so much for each one of my cases.
You know, almost 20 years into it, I still plan obsessively so I can get the best results.
[00:13:21] Speaker C: Rock. When you're in these, I mean, like. Like, I'll pick Everest only because we just finished with that. But no, it's not a few weeks. It's months of your life in preparation and months, actually, you know, at base camp on the mountain and managing this, you must have, like, just. You must go through a host of emotions, anywhere from elation to absolute despair.
You know, like, how hard is it. How hard is it to be present in the moment, you know, versus just, you know, your mind wandering all the time about your past, your future, thinking about. I can't imagine what must go through your mind because you're pretty isolated in these situations. And I wonder how that impacts just when you come back from that back to work and, you know, just what that dynamic must feel like, because you. You do it quite a bit, right? You go for a bit and you come back.
[00:14:07] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question, Mo.
I think you're way more present when you're in a remote situation like that than when you're at home. We're constantly being pulled in a million different directions, right? And this thing over here is by far the worst thing that's ever happened. We're constantly being Text, emailed. And, you know, I'm kind of an Internet addict scrolling through YouTube and through, you know, Instagram, and I never turn off. I'm constantly on. And there are a lot of things in life which are challenging. I deal with some personal mental health issues, some depression and anxiety, and I find the best way to push those things to the side is to stay extremely busy and not really give myself a chance to stop and think.
And when you don't have these distractions is when you're really present. Now, present doesn't necessarily mean enjoying the view or, like, enjoying the run or the climb. Present means being present in your own mind and your own thoughts as opposed to having these distractions.
And I think one of the things I really love about these trips, and it's also one of the most difficult things, is kind of where your mind takes you. You start thinking about so many things, and you go from elation by looking at the view and hanging out with friends and making all these new connections to, like, deep sorrow and sadness about the mistakes you've made in your life. And it's this full range of emotions.
And, you know, I think that's being present, you know, in real life, these emotions are kind of blunted because of all the distractions that we have.
So, I mean, to me, honestly, that's the hardest thing about these kinds of trips, but it's also by far the most rewarding part of these trips.
[00:15:50] Speaker A: Probably a little bit more expensive than paying a therapist, but perhaps a little bit more effective.
[00:15:56] Speaker B: I don't know. My therapist is pretty damn effective. Mark. He's pretty good.
But no, you know, it's. That's climbing. But even if you go on a smaller, you know, trip where you're kind of isolated, you don't need to, you know, even leave the country, even leave the state to put yourself in that kind of position. You know, it's almost meditative, you know, when you do something like that and people find that in different activities, running, climbing, painting, you know, cooking, wherever, you can just disconnect. I mean, I think that's a special place for us to be in. A place which is harder and harder to find.
Right.
[00:16:32] Speaker A: I.
This is kind of my last question for you.
[00:16:35] Speaker C: Rock.
[00:16:35] Speaker A: But I kind of sense there's almost a spiritual aspect to the ultramarathoning and climbing that goes beyond mental health. Is. Am I reading you right on that?
[00:16:46] Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. I think there are a lot of reasons why I do these things. I like the physical challenge, and, you know, I like the beauty and the nature. But yeah, there is certainly a spiritual aspect of it.
[00:16:59] Speaker B: Yeah, it just gives you a chance to reflect and think about life. And that's just something that I don't typically get a chance to do.
So all of these events are really meaningful primarily for that reason and also for the connections that you make and the people that you meet, you'd never meet otherwise, you know.
[00:17:17] Speaker C: You know, rock. I think it's often scary for people. I'm sure there's those who are listening in, you know, and I'm sure you've got this when you come back, right, there's going to be groups of people and I'm curious how you manage this or how you help others. There's a group that says, oh my goodness, that's amazing.
How do you find the time? And I'd like to do some of this. And then, you know, you've got that banter.
You've got other groups saying, I don't know why you do this. I mean, like, you know, like why, like I don't get it, like why are you doing this? And so you always got people around you, right. And everyone's got an opinion. How do you manage that part of, you know, the things you're doing? Because I think it has so much to do with, you know, just doing something for yourself and not really doing something for what others expectations are. I would imagine you are one of the very few orthopedic surgeons that have summited Everest. And I'm using Everest only as an example because it's the classic we talk about. But you live a very, I think, a very unique life that makes sense for you. And I'm curious how you go away and you're with a group of peers who really get that part of your life. Then you come back to your orthopedic surgical life with another group of people who understand the clinical side but may not understand the other part. How have you been able to manage that?
[00:18:30] Speaker B: I think coming back is challenging for a few different reasons. It is really challenging to change gears so rapidly, focusing on one particular task, whether it's running or climbing, and then all of a sudden being bombarded by multiple things that we have in our daily life.
Having time to think and reflect when you're away and then when you're back not having any time to do that at all.
And then, yeah, people's opinions are very interesting. You know, like I said, I don't really post much on Instagram. I don't do this because I'm trying to impress Other people. In fact, it's the opposite. I have a lot of imposter syndrome about this stuff. I'm not the best climber, I'm not the best runner. I'm not an amazing athlete. I'm just a guy that likes to do stuff. Yet people tend to, you know, make comments about, you know, like, me doing this because I want attention, or a wealthy individual doing this. And it has nothing to do with that.
And it's funny, my friends have, like, responded to comments that people have made online about me, and I'm like, man, leave it alone. If this is what they want to think, this is what they want to think. I don't do it for them.
And the people that are interested in it and want to talk to me about it, I try to talk to them about it. More than just the activity, more than just the climbing. Kind of like what we're doing today, right? Like, for me, it's climbing, but what is the value in it? How does it help me in my life? How does it help me get out of some dark places? The balance of, you know, our professional lives and our personal lives. That's what I try to talk to people about. And then there's another group of people that always says that they wish they had the time.
And, you know, we make our lives whatever we want to make our lives, right? Like, I think both of you live very unique lives as well. We have to prioritize certain things. And, you know, for me, these kinds of activities are really important. I wake up at 4:30 in the morning, 4:20 in the morning, get up at 4:30 to work out. It's just an important thing for me. Nothing happens at 4:30. If there's a trauma, even if it's an open fracture, you're not going to do it at 6. You're going to wait till 7:30 in the morning to do it. No one's really bothering you. And I make time to do it. So there's always time. It's just, what are you going to do? Sacrifice and how are you going to balance things?
[00:20:40] Speaker C: Something I always say. I said it today to a group of maybe 100 biostatisticians, of all people. There rock. But, you know, there's about 86,400 seconds in a day. And you know, how you spend that time, I think is particularly important when someone has said to me, and I wonder if this is the same thing you get and same thing with you, Mark, is I don't have the time.
Partly, I think what they're Saying is I don't have the time to prioritize that. I have lots of time. I do all kinds of other things, but I don't prioritize that enough that I would spend my time on it. And I think having you on today is a lot about helping. I think others understand that there's a lot of richness in life, about trying new things, putting yourself in a, you know, I wouldn't say for you, definitely it's a danger zone because I think it's very high risk what you do. But you're also very skilled and very thoughtful about what you do. But, you know, challenging yourself, you know, risking some failures, I think is really important a question I'd like to leave with and against. I'd encourage those of you who are listening, who are on Instagram, to look up Rock Patel. I think you'll be, you know, particularly inspired by the work he does and the things he does, you know, to do this. But you write in your, in your sort of summary about who you are, a surgeon exploring the world and his own limits.
Have you reached your limit and what's next?
[00:21:56] Speaker B: I mean, I don't think so. I started running just this last year. You know, I was climbing a lot. I did a lot of high altitude mountaineering. Then Covid happened and we couldn't travel internationally. So then I started picking up ice climbing, like you had mentioned.
And last year, about this time in January, I turned 50 and everyone would ask me, whenever I would see people in the hospital every week, I'd get asked this question multiple times, what's your next climb? Right. And after a while, I wasn't sure whether I was climbing because I was still passionate about it or because that became my identity.
So I made a very intentional decision to stop climbing in 2025.
And I wanted to pick something that I really wasn't good at. And running is something I've only done to train for climbing. I never really, you know, paid much attention to it. So I set a schedule of ultramarathons, starting with a, you know, 50k and working my way up to a self sustained 260 kilometer run through Iceland. And it's been really interesting. I never thought I'd be able to do any of that. Right.
And through training and a progressive plan, I've been able to do all these things. So to your question, have I reached my limits physically? I don't think I have. I think that there are a lot more things that I could do and want to do outside of climbing if I put my Mind to it professionally, you know, I keep evolving as a surgeon and I went from a minimally invasive spine surgeon to a maximally invasive deformity surgeon.
Um, I'm now, I pride myself on being a mentor now to other faculty members.
And you know, I got my MBA and I'm doing more administrative work. So I don't think I've reached my limits physically, you know, emotionally, professionally, you know, I think, I think I'll always keep pushing, you know.
[00:23:46] Speaker C: Well, all I can say is you are an absolute inspiration to many, I'm sure who are listening. And I can't thank you enough for taking a bit of time with us. I could literally spend hours and hours and hours with you just chatting and I, I think I will take you up on that. Me and Mark are often talking about getting together and just having chats and I think we're also long overdue for that too. Mark, one to one, but I have.
[00:24:08] Speaker B: Really questions for you guys. You, you all live interesting lives. It'd be great to hear about that too.
[00:24:13] Speaker C: Well, there you go. So maybe we'll. I think we're definitely going to have to get you back on for sure in chat, but I don't know. Mark, if you have any final comments. But thank you so much, Rock, for spending some time with us this evening.
[00:24:23] Speaker B: Thanks for having me.
[00:24:24] Speaker A: My only final comment is it's been just a real, a wonderful thing to get to know you just a bit. And here's a tip from Mo. Something that's quite safe. But what you do is you find a pond and you take an ax and you chop a hole in the ice and submerge yourself for five minutes and you know, it's pretty safe. He tells me. But there you go. Think about that, Rock.
[00:24:49] Speaker C: You're not Canadian if you've not been in ice cold water in Canada in winter with snow.
[00:24:55] Speaker B: I'll tell you, as someone that grew up in the inner city, I don't even know how to swim. So water terrified of me.
[00:25:01] Speaker C: That's your next challenge. There you go.
All right, folks, thanks so much. Have a lovely evening, Brock. And thanks again, Mark, for a great session.
[00:25:08] Speaker B: Thank you. Have a great Thanksgiving.
