Episode Transcript
[00:00:03] Speaker A: Welcome to the Ortho Joe Podcast, a joint production of the Journal of Bone and Joint Surgery and Ortho Evidence.
Join hosts Mohit Bhandari and Mark Swankowski as they discuss current topics and publications in the world of orthopedics and beyond.
[00:00:19] Speaker B: Well, good morning, Mark. How are you?
[00:00:21] Speaker A: I'm doing well, Mo. Trust you are as well. And I'm still, despite the fact that we've got such high heat and humidity here, I'm still sticking with the hot coffee, not converted ice.
[00:00:37] Speaker B: Yeah, the evidence does tell you that on a hot day, actually a little bit of coffee isn't a bad thing. But we're Canadian and we're going to stick with our Tim Hortons.
We're true tried. Well, I should say I am anyway. But we're not here to talk about coffee. We're not here to talk about the weather.
But we are here to talk about the Ruth Jackson Orthopedic Society. And what better day than to talk about the Ruth Jackson Orthopedic Society. Marc we have with us Dr. Linda Silliman and Dr. Anna Cullen Rosenblum.
Both represent the President and the Vice president roles at the Ruth Jackson Orthopedic Society.
Linda is an associate professor in the Department of Orthopedic Surgery at Northwestern University and she also holds the an associate dean role of Health Equity. Anna is an associate professor in the Department of Orthopedic Surgery at NYU Grossman School of Medicine. Welcome both, and thank you so much for joining us this morning.
[00:01:30] Speaker C: Thanks for having us.
[00:01:32] Speaker B: So let me start off with what I've read about the Ruth Jackson Orthopaedic Society, and I wonder if you could clarify whether this is accurate.
I've learned a lot that what sometimes is written and may be dated and not, but it definitely is a very important group, which was, as I understand, founded in 1983 and was dedicated to supporting and networking women in orthopedics. It aims to promote professional development of women in orthopedics throughout all stages of their careers and offers a host of resources, including mentoring, professional development and educational opportunities for residents and medical students.
Now, it says that the society has grown to over 1500. I wonder if that's still the case. And it's primarily North American, and I wonder if that's still the case, but certainly it seems to be known and well respected as a platform for sharing experiences and solutions related to orthopedic practice and residency. So how's that for a summary? Is that accurate or have we missed something?
[00:02:32] Speaker D: I definitely think we've expanded Upon Ruth Jackson Society was named after the first orthopedic surgeon who was board certified, who was a woman, Ruth Jackson.
We started to basically bring the few women of orthopedics together. It started at a meeting at AOS where you had, you know, 10 or 15 women who met. And it's grown to probably closer to about 2,000 members at this point with active members practicing surgeons. And on the good side is the trainee numbers have outnumbered active practicing surgeons. So great to see that the trail behind us, you know, has outgrown us. And me and Anna have seen that specifically in arthroplasty. We've seen it specifically in specialties that were well underrepresented with women of orthopedics, trauma spine.
And we actually just expanded to international member category this past year. So we've got actually we're close to almost 90 members now who are international women who've joined the Ruth Jackson Society. And RJos is actually going to be represented next April at the first Women of Orthopedics worldwide meeting that'll be held in Italy.
And so it's going to be the first worldwide meeting of really the global leaders of women in orthopedics. So it's definitely expanded past just networking to really professional development, growth, visibility and really just getting organized is how I would probably see it. Now we're sort of moved past the support aspect that we know how to support each other. We now need to build upon leadership and visibility.
[00:04:05] Speaker B: And can I just jump in with one more follow up question? So in both of your leadership roles, have you noticed any unique differences or uniqueness to the types of needs that let's say women outside North America might be having than those within or those within low middle income countries, for example, or developing nations with those like in Europe and other places?
[00:04:26] Speaker D: Yeah, I'll start and then I'll anastore chime in. Since she's heavily actually involved with a C COP society, the Global Orthopedic Society. But what I'll say is I think the US women probably organized earlier. So. So I wouldn't say we are ahead, but I would say that we're just more organized in really getting the Calvary together to form committees and groups and presence within organizations. We started Women in Arthroplasty really through the women of RJOs and we've really grown that we have a president and myself program chair, two women running the largest hip and knee week in the world. So I would say from an organization standpoint, and then you know, we've got a Generation of men and allies, I would say probably cohorts of Anna and I, that helped us kind of get here too. And I think the culture may be a little bit different in the US that, you know, we were sort of more vocal and I think organized than probably our international colleagues who, you know, I've joined some of the webinars and things that we're discussing at the global level. It's sort of things that we were discussing probably five to eight years ago.
[00:05:32] Speaker C: Yeah, I think Linda's absolutely right. I see all those trends as well. What's been interesting to me, being involved in CCOT in a couple months, outgoing chair of their Young surgeons committee. So that's been a very eye opening experience to have leadership roles that are based in the US and also that connect me with people from many other countries. And I think all those concerns are true. And I think that we in the US from a women ortho perspective, potentially are a little more organized. But there are some things that I think we can learn from women in residencies outside the US that actually are a lot better than what we have in the U.S. for example, the more competency based training as opposed to time based, which allows for taking longer leaves for parental leave without having as much penalization. I think that in the US if you don't graduate residency on time, that's a big stigma in terms of fellowship and finding a job. Like, oh, why did you take more than five years versus in some other countries? There really isn't that pressure and there is more of an ability to take more time. So I think that's just a small example of how we can learn from each other. And I think that's what Linda and I, and this is really Linda's big initiative to add an international membership. You know, yes, RG OS is for mostly US based surgeons, but I think there's a lot we can learn from women around the world in this amazing field. So that's part of our initiative over the next couple of years, is to expand this collaboration and learn from each other.
[00:06:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I've just got a comment. Thanks to both of you for being on the podcast.
I have a really close friend, Margaret McQueen, who is the first consultant in Scotland, trauma surgeon. And we travel the world together playing golf, this funny game that Mo and I actually enjoy. But she pointed out to me that in the UK women actually get six months following the birth of a child and has chastised me on a regular basis for what's going on with the US Why don't they get up to speed. So that's to your point about learning from other countries. My question is, can you, one of you run through the stats just for our listening audience? Where are we? What, what percentage of practicing orthopedic surgeon, what percentage in residency? Just, just to give us a snapshot of where we are now.
[00:07:38] Speaker C: I mean, I think these data are a little old.
I think we're waiting for an update. But what I was, what I've been told and Linda, tell me if, if you've heard anything different that we're. That the late, the latest, which is a few years old, I think is about 6% of practicing orthopedic surgeons, 15 to 20% of residents. But I think that's due for an update. But that's what I recall.
[00:08:02] Speaker A: We might be further along than those stats, which is a great thing. I'd also like for one of you, or both of you to just outline for our listeners the programs that RJOS has, because I know you're heavily involved actually before medical school, et cetera, et cetera. So run down the programs. What do you provide?
[00:08:26] Speaker D: Sure. So from a broad overview, I would say we sort of subcategorize into our medical student membership, our resident membership, and then our active practicing membership. And from a medical student standpoint, we provide a lot of mentorships. We have pipeline of mentoring programs, and we have a medical student committee, nationally organized, that has events at different schools, RJS schools and chapters that we have mentoring events and sort of leading into orthopedics. And then we actually sponsor nearly 80 medical students to come to the AOS meeting to present their work. And we've sort of expanded that upon research.
So a lot of people's first time being on a podium is very daunting. Right. And so we provide a research day at OGIS meeting every year where residents and medical students can present. And we actually use development. So, you know, we have a zoom meeting with them. This is how you present. This is what you say in six minutes and sort of really trying to develop them professionally and just public speaking skills that no one really tells you about.
And then we just formed our new resident member committee because we were losing the pipeline of residents then becoming active members. Right. And you know, what is the. What are we doing for our residents? So we've actually a lot of residents don't get supported to actually present their work at national meetings. They don't get to go to professional development.
So we actually have scholarships for our residents to be able to do so. And then the active Membership standpoint, we have partnered with Bob Kaye's foundation. He's a pediatric orthopedic surgeon out of chla. We've got the Kaye foundation support where we actually have Case Scholars at all levels. So Case Scholars at the medical student level are those individuals who are at schools without orthopedic programs. So imagine you want to be an orthopedic surgeon and you have no residency program.
And so you are matched in our Case Scholar program with our faculty within RJOs to try to get into orthopedics. So how do you interview? How do you do a sub? I'm getting reference letters, we're picking up the phone calling programs for you. And then Case Scholars at the resident program is really development into jobs contracting. You know, what's the next step for fellowship? A lot of women don't have the support of wanting to go into certain fellowships because they don't have the support within their departments.
And then at the active membership standpoint, we have a lot of women who are going to go for active promotion but may not be well known. Right. So they're doing good work. But you need to be able to have a visiting professor and grand round speaking engagements. So we actually have five institutions who've partnered with us to host RJOs active members for grand round speaking. And we're funding all of them to be there. And so it's these partnerships and then publications. So publication fees are expensive and not a lot of people have the opportunity or funding to do so. So our members, if they submit to JBJS or J pasna's next issue next month, we will give you the money to, to have that publication. And so we're sort of past just the actual like, let's support each other and talk to each other to how do we financially support you in these development opportunities? How do we get you the grand Rounds and the visibility and making those networking. That's been a whole shift under my pillars of my presidency is we have to go leave the talking to each other and the support and what we're struggling with to actionable ways to actually get elevated in orthopedics.
[00:11:51] Speaker C: In addition to all that, over the past couple of years, I think we've seen a more formalization of our education committee. So we've had a lot of our members do surveys, you know, because it's a. It's a group that people want to study female orthopedic surgeons. And over the years now we have a formal survey process and we keep track of when the results of these surveys get published so you can see the research that's being done into, you know, the lives and practice patterns of our members. I benefited myself. I did a survey back in, I think it was 20, 20, 21 occupational injuries of female orthopedic surgeons. So. And there's been surveys about pregnancy, breastfeeding, all sorts of different aspects of life as a female orthopedic surgeon. So another thing that we've been prioritizing is helping our members do this research and then keeping track of when and where it gets published.
[00:12:40] Speaker B: There's. I mean, there's so many insights. You've just raised both of you around how, how you're helping, you know, your membership. Insights that should be, you know, that you would think that most organizations that want to help their membership should be doing. Are you at the table internationally or nationally with respect to, as a president? Are there various councils that you get to sit at to be able to share these ideas or how do you get these ideas out beyond the society? Is it through your international contacts and your other leadership roles?
[00:13:08] Speaker D: I would say right now, you know, we are a member of the Board of Specialties BOS for aos. I don't know if there's a lot of interaction that we have with exchange of ideas, but this is very new for us too. So, you know, this is within six months of me being president that we started sort of shifting into a different RJOs, and that's what I wanted to leave with. And, you know, we're probably biased. Our entire presidential line are joint surgeons right now. And so all our friends. So, you know, we, we sort of will carry that along.
But, you know, we have to start thinking outside of, like, how do we still remain relevant as societies and organizations? Because we've seen many members leave academy, we've seen members leave other specialty societies.
And I don't want that for RJOs, because as soon as we disband as women, we're broken. We're not going to be able to elevate each other or support each other. If we start to separate out for us, we sort of, I think within our presidential line, we're very heavily involved in other organizations and work closely. And so we've done a lot of exchanging ideas and we've sat on committees and leadership in other organizations. And I hope we can sort of follow suit. Like, we have to put our money where our mouth is. Like, what are we doing for our members? It's not just them paying membership fees. Like, what are you getting out of the organization?
[00:14:26] Speaker B: I will tell you that it is imperative, just as, you know, just the way everyone's going, that associations have to have a value proposition. Everyone journals have to have a value proposition for why you come to us. There's so many choices. So it's just great to see two really, really impressive leaders, you know, thinking about shifting the way, you know, the RJOs moves forward.
Maybe I'll ask one question. I'll leave one for Mark at the end for sure. I'm sure Mark's got lots, but I'll leave one for him at the end. When you look to the future five years from now and, you know, it's hard to tell what's going to happen, but what do you hope will happen at the RG os?
[00:15:01] Speaker D: Well, and I'll let you start since you're the future.
[00:15:04] Speaker C: Ah, Okay. I really just hope we can build on the great work. I'm going to throw it back to Linda of what she's done in her year, which is not even done yet. Right. I think we've done an excellent job over the past few years, five to 10 years, cultivating our pipeline. Right. The students and helping them have the resources to match and be successful trainees. It's fallen off a little bit at the resident level like we talked about. And I think there are many attending surgeon members, myself included, who joined because, you know, we felt like it was a. It was an obligation given the support we had gotten before. But I don't want that to be joining out of obligation.
[00:15:42] Speaker B: What?
[00:15:42] Speaker C: Not. Okay. Not that I'm.
I'm happy to guilt people, you know, that's part of my brand. Happy to guilt people, enjoy. But there should be a value add for them. We want to make RJOs the premier institution or the premier organization that practicing surgeons can get a lot out of. Not just joining because, oh, they helped me when I was a med student or I got a scholarship to come speak at the annual meeting, but I'm actually going to get value from this group both through networking and through professional opportunities that I can use throughout my entire career. So that. That is what I hope RJOS continues its progress towards.
[00:16:15] Speaker D: Yeah, I would just add. And it sort of goes along the theme of our annual meeting this year is the many careers of the orthopedic surgeon.
And I want our organization to be very basically like a strategic network for women who happen to be orthopedic surgeons. But does it mean that you're practicing orthopedic surgeon? And what I want to highlight is the many lives of what people are doing, you know, We've got great friends in orthopedics who have started their own venture capital. We've got orthopedic surgeons who are leading many high level orthopedic journals. We've got orthopedic surgeons who are vice presidents of universities and provosts. I think just starting to think about being strategic on what it actually takes to lead. Right. And lead in many different aspects of where you may start in orthopedics. But there's bigger things that you could have a larger impact in. And I think what Anna and I have both benefited from is we get a lot of comments that the women in arthroplasty are very strong. And a lot of that has to do with we just came together, right. And we came together over a simple webinar in one of the smallest symposiums in Park City, right. Five years ago.
And if someone's invited to a meeting, we invite the other person. If I can't go speak somewhere, I say, oh, I know I have a great speaker for you. It's Anna.
And I want us to start thinking in that manner is that don't show up somewhere alone. Show up with five other women who are leading in XY specialty.
So what I hope for RJOs is we've got the pipeline down. The next step is really strategically placing women in leadership positions, whether it's on the academic side, running private practices, whatever it may be. We don't want to give you the skill set to be able to do that.
[00:18:00] Speaker C: Yes, it's all about mentorship and sponsorship, which is kind of a recent buzzword, but I think it really applies to exactly what Linda just said. There's mentorship and helping people, you know, give them advice and achieve. And then there's the sponsor who says, you know, says your name in the room when you're not there and advocates for you. And that's what we want to encourage among our members as well.
[00:18:19] Speaker B: Amazing. Mark, I'll leave it to you to end this.
[00:18:23] Speaker A: Well, I appreciate that very much, and thanks again to both of you for being on, on the podcast. So I've got one suggestion for you to consider. Orthopedic surgeons are incredibly competitive, as you know, and that doesn't have anything to do with your chromosomes. What about creating a competition amongst or all the orthopedic departments in U.S. and Canada? The percentage of women on the faculty.
Okay. I mean, you. And you could color code it like red, green, yellow.
[00:18:52] Speaker C: Don't say pink.
[00:18:55] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I wouldn't. Red, green, yellow, you know, and just, just every year come out with a publication. Maybe. Maybe the editor in chief at the JB Jazz, who I know very well, might consider just publishing, I don't know, a metric, an annual metric, the departments in North America. Just a thought. I. I just got one story to close. It's a very personal thing for me. I was a medical student at the University of Southern California, and I did a rotation at the University of Washington, and I was assigned to be at the Children's Hospital in Seattle. And my chief resident was Carol Tights, the first female surgeon in the University of Washington, which, I will tell you, was not an easy place at that time in history, in the 80s. And Carol fought for me. And I trained at the University of Washington because of Carol. And I'm eternally grateful for her taking me under her wing and promoting me. Women are very good at promoting others, as you two have demonstrated.
We thank you so much for being on this show and thank you for what you're doing for orthopedic surgery. I don't think I will live to see the day when the percentage of female orthopedic surgeons equals that of medical students, but I'm hopeful that maybe we'll get at least halfway there by the time I'm done and gone. So thanks again. And Mo, thanks for thinking of asking these two dynamic women leaders in orthopedic surgery to be on ortho. Joe, thanks very much.
[00:20:30] Speaker B: Another inspiring podcast. Thanks again.
[00:20:33] Speaker C: Thanks a lot,
[00:20:42] Speaker B: Sam.
